The SAAF Forum

Hey guys, I was just wondering if the SAAF Mirage III's of the mid 60's, 70's and early 80's, ever saw action of any sort. I know the F1's were employed in the Border conflict of the late 80's, and came up against Mig 21's... But did the SAAF ever engage enemy air or ground targets with the Mirage III's in a real life scenario. I saw one of the Mirage III's at the Museum (the Mirage IIIRZ-i think it was) had a camera built in the nose for reconnaisance. Was actual recconaissance done? as in actual missions, where the pilots flew into enemy territory to complete missions?

Im a youngster, keen to know thanks.

Felix

A most definite yes. The Mirage III was first used operationally during Cassinga, 4 May 1978. Even the Mirage IIID2Z was used operationally in 1979. The Mirage III played a role until 1988. Mirage IIIR2Z "856" was shot down in 1979. A Mirage IIICZ suffered engine and nozzle flap damage after being hit by a SAM-7 in 1981. The Mirage IIICZ was scrambled against MiG-21's and MiG-23's but was never able to get within missile range. The main problem with the Mirage III was its limited range and combat time.

Cheers,
Paul

Interesting, I'd known all the other types had seen combat, but until now I had not known that any of the D2Zs had seen action.

Incidentally, how was the interceptor role divided up between the F1CZs and the Mirage IIICZs? I'm asking because most of my sources seem to indicate that the F1CZs were the primary interceptor type, which would appear at first glance to have left the IIICZs somewhat underutilised.

Also, were the IIICZs used for any bombing missions? I know they were occasionally used for strafing attacks (such as at Cassinga), but I'm not sure if they had the required systems for effective bombing.

Oh yes, and about R2Z "856", wasn't that the airframe that the Angolans would keep trotting out for the world's press for every so often, each time hiding the serial number and claiming it to be a new kill?

Darren,

The D2Z was first used during Op Rekstok in 1979.

The F1's had a lot more staying power, so they could go out and "mix" with the enemy. They also had the use of Rundu which was no use to a heavy laden Mirage III(Runway too short), although it was used occasionally by the "R"'s. The Mirage IIICZ was based at Ondangwa and they formed CAP's. Thus the F1's tended to engage the enemy and the Mirage III's would wait for the fight to come to them.

The Mirage IIICZ was most certainly used for bombing missions and often carried 250kg bombs.

"Oh yes, and about R2Z "856", wasn't that the airframe that the Angolans would keep trotting out for the world's press for every so often, each time hiding the serial number and claiming it to be a new kill?" Yep, it was last "shot down" in 1987!?! Probably the worlds most famous tail fin!

Cheers,
Paul

Interesting, nice to learn something new. Incidentally, wasn't Rekstok also the first time the Impala MkIIs saw combat?



Right, I guess that would make sense. I had not even considered the relative range, as well as the longer runway lengths required by the Mirage III. Thinking about it now makes me feel a little stupid for never realising this before.



Nice, up until now I had thought they had engaged in strafing missions only. Btw, do you have any info on which Ops they were involved in strike bombing missions?




Haha, I thought so. You have to admire the audacity of the Angolans, reusing an old airframe is something I probably would never have thought of. That said, one has to wonder at the sheer ignorance of the international media, or rather their apparent willingness to uncritically believe everything the Angolans told them.
Unfortunately, it was due to journalists like that, that the full story of the Border War was never widely told.

Thankyou, for those valuable insights...... would it be right to conclude that one of the factors, that made it necessary for the Mirage III to require a longer runway than the F1; is because of its delta wing?Can one say that the delta winged aircraft have higher take off and landing speeds than the wing shape of an F1? taking into consideration diff weights.... thanks guys

The F1 uses 30% less for take-off length, 25% less approach speed than the Mirage III and the pursuit flight time is tripled!

It isn't just the wing shape, the conventional wing was fitted with high-lift devices etc. New technology existed which favoured the conventional wing, as is the case today with the Mirage 2000 going back to the Delta wing.

Thanks Paul,

The Mirage III's, if im correct, were used by Israel in the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars, where they performed admirably. Would You predict that the Israeli's had the same difficulties, in getting within range of enemy aircraft to engage? or did we lack the necessary resources? or was merely a factor of larger airspaces, that made the Mirage III's fall short in the 'Air Superiority Role' ( I mean, where they could get within range, engage, dogfight, mix and medle due to sufficient combat radius)

I actually feel like im answering my own question here, but i've thought about it, and it's obviously the different distances that the Israelis had to cover compared with us. Israel can just about fit into the Kruger National Park!!!! Nevertheless I would like to hear your view. Thanks

Felix
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You have answered your own question but I would say that the SAAF Mirage III performed admirably aswell! Especially as far as serviceability was concerned. It was a different war with different roles at a different time in history. Firstly and most importantly is the distance covered, then it is aircraft types used and the role that they played. If Angola had chosen to bomb Namibia, then the Mirage III would have come to the fore as a fighter. The reconnaisance version played a vital role and the Mirage III was also a successful strike aircraft during the Angolan War.

Cheers,
Paul

The Israelis used their Mirage IIIs as a 'day fighter' because of the good weather that can generally be found in the Middle East. That is why the next version ordered did not feature a radar, ie, the Mirage V.

The superior training and tactics of the Israelis also added to the image of 'invincibility' of the Mirage III, particulalry over the MiG-21s as flown by the Arab airforces.

Thanks Guys... Im facinated by the Mirages, it makes me so sad to see those few at the museum, the ones not on display rusting away behind the scenes. Each one of those special aircraft have a story, that is all too soon forgotten. Wish there was money to keep them in shape. So that the public could appreciate their service to our air defence, and their great performances of the past.

Felix

Felix
Good to meet another Mirage III fan! I was a member of 2 Sqn from 1984 to 1990 and during that time we did spend quite some time in the operational area. A few deployments were basic exercises in conjunction with the MRG Mobile Radar Group stationed at AFB Ondangwa, (can't remember their designation) and of course coupled to the unlimited flying terrain offered by the area, it was training time well spent.
However, during my time on the squadron, we did participate in Ops Packer, Modular and Hooper ( I hope I'm allowed to mention this!). The CZ's were stationed at Ondangwa and were tasked with protecting Oshakati primarily and the whole area in general from Angolan incursions and the RZ's and R2Z's spent most of their time in Rundu and we only saw them if they needed fuel or repairs! The recce birds certainly saw a lot of action being involved in pre-strike recce as well as post-strike assessments.
I still call the Mir III one of the best and with the recent retirement of the French CEV ( Centre d'Essais en Vol - Test Flight Centre) Mirage III's , I believe South Africa now flies the only original Mirage IIIB around - BZ 817/ ZU DMD, thanks to the efforts of Glen Warden and his team. Keep your eyes peeled at an air show near you.
Regards
Mielie

Sir, Thankyou for that info, wish i could been in 2Sqd in those days flying those beautiful aircraft on a daily basis. Man You guys, must have had one hell of a time up there, im not suggesting it was fun(I mean it was full on war)... but to be a part of the Mirage III's operational deployment must have been an unbelievable experience and an honour. I can just imagine, waking up at 04h00 to get into a flight suit, and prepare to fly at the speed of sound and faster whilst the first light edges over the horizon,and then being up there and you are surrounded by miles of terrain below you. Your wingmen to the left and right of you, in close communication. That perfect machine, in your hands, all yours for that entire time.... Man i would give anything to be there, in that flight suit.

What are you doing these days, since you left the SAAF. My guess is you're flying F-18's for the Royal Australian Airforce!

Yeah Im a big Mirage Fan, One day when Im rich, I buy one to fix up, it'll be a two seater, so you can take me up and show what that beautiful bird can really do! Cheers

Felix